Why make a comparison of citizen x'ers to people who hate america? Where have you once seen me say "I hate america"? Are you one of those shallow minded liberal types that feels like they are cheated but lack of government control? If anything my rants should prove that I love this country. If I didnt care about the USA I wouldnt voice my concern over where our government has been leading us. In my opinion every american should be mad as hell at where our politicians have taken us over their greed and power. I notice that a lot of people who post here have no real insight into the government or politics. They simply defend a stance that was engrained into them by their family or their union. "Love it or leave it" you say? Well..I'll stay right here... I'll write and rant to keep my country from becoming like the ones you speak of.... Read what I am saying for a change. If you read two lines and feel offended and stop to call me stupid, you are missing the entire point. Only other option is to stay blind and closed minded....Either way, Have a good one... X

when we have clean water, clean air, abundance of natural food resources, and very few people. This will not work nationwide. If we said that people should fail, in order to make it better, then we are asking for a massive migration AWAY from the city, to here. OR fighting among the populace for the dwindling resources.

Unlike during the Depression (where clean water could be found on most "what has become suburban" areas). Today that same water source is either diverted, closed to the public, or dirty. Same thing with farmland. Today we couldn't feed ourselves with a victory garden, yet back then we could.

Sorry but the USA has become a large overpopulated place, and one that still believes that you have the RIGHT TO LIFE. The solution up here is not the best one for the rest of the nation. We need to help our neighbor, not shun them.

It would be nice if this country went back to its founding values. One where the politicians are servants to the people. One where the governments job was to protect individual rights, not infringe on them.

This country was formed to give people the right of "life, liberty, and the PURSUIT of happiness."

Note that it doesn't say guaranteed happiness. Which would mean that people WILL fail. Our government doesn't want anyone to fail. Because the don't want anyone to fail, they rob Peter to pay Paul. Of course the Paul's of the country get used to getting free money from the government, and don't have any incentive to better themselves.

I guarantee that people would work much harder to get better paying jobs and succeed if there wasn't any government handouts.

during the last administration, the comment was repeated: "If you don't like it here, move."

Seems like I should repeat that to all the Citizen X'ers out there.

This is the place we call home. Renounce your citizenship and move out (or stay here and get these benefits you speak of). You will not pay SS taxes, and have free health care, schooling, and YOU will become THEM.

Thank you for voting to stay an American.

I WISH I had the option to not have S.S. taxes taken from my paychecks. I figured it out, and I would actually get a higher rate of return purchasing savings bonds than I will get from my "investment" in S.S., assuming I spent the same amount on savings bonds each month as I involuntarily contribute to S.S.

The problem with our society is the lack of personal responsibility. It's always somebody elses fault, and somebody else's (ususally the government) responsibility to fix it.

If I have the responsibility (aka required through taxes) to pay for someones healthcare, do I get to dictate that the person recieving healthcare through my hard work not smoke, drink, or use drugs?

Or is it a 1 way street? They get to do whatever activities they want that will jeopordize their health, but america still gets to pay for it? Doesn't seem fair.

The Constitution allows the government to enact laws for the "general welfare" of the country. The EPA could fall under that, since it protects the country as a whole, and EVERYBODY benefits.

SW,

Nobody likes paying taxes, I just hope you'll put your money where your mouth is and send back your social security check when you hit the ripe old age. And put your kids through private school. The only thing that could draw a starker comparison than between 1913 taxes and 2009 taxes is 1913 society and 2009 society. There's been some good discussion on this thread and if you've been reading you've seen people talking about the value of the "middle" in American politics. A government that provides only roads, armies, and patents is by no means a viable solution for any country in any part of the world in this day and age (for better or for worse). As for me, I really appreciate what the government has done in a lot of ways (FDR-soc.sec., LBJ-Medicare, Nixon-EPA) to look out for the more vulnerable members of societies and our better well-being.

Where I come from(a moderatel liberal) I think the bailouts are garbage and I don't like what our government has done with them in the past eight months...now it's your move: where would you (and the other T.E.A. timers) compromise to find something that might work? Because my only problem is that this whole "Taxed Enough Already" stuff isn't giving us clear answers. I understand the confusion/anger because like I said, nobody likes paying taxes. But just for an example, one of my best friends is gung-ho with the whole T.E.A. thing, and yet he's a prison guard for the state. I tease him about this and he replies that "they'll always find money to keep prisoners locked away." I just shake my head because it seems he hates taxes until it serves him to love them. Just my two cents here, don't mean to sound like a jerk I'm just wondering where the compromise is.

If you are only worried about stupaks committee assignment you are clueless as to what we have brewing in this country. Whether or not we have someone on a committee that decides what bills will be introduced makes no difference. The problem is that these bills are up for sale at the committee level. This is where all the corruption begins. The politicians sit on these bills in committee and wait to see who the highest bidder is. They either introduce the bill for vote or kill it. Pretty simple really. What I am saying is these people are ALL for sale. republicans and democrats. The american people are always taken in by words like "CHANGE" yet they never change anything on election day. We have government officials that demand we use less foriegn power sources, yet they demand we dont use our own resources either. These people want us to use clean energy, but they wont allow for solar panels to be placed in the optimum spots (because of a turtle?). They want to tax coal power out of existance, but cant give the people a feasible alternative. Would be funny if it were fiction, but it is not. It is hard to even wrap your head around how idiocy has run rampant in D.C. Yeah, I am worried about who represents me (sarcasm). I'd rather have someone with no experience than someone who knows all the "tricks". .... X

Our elected officials should FOLLOW their oaths of office to "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States".

If they simply did that, this "red vs blue", "dem vs rep" thing wouldn't be nearly what it is today.

Our take home pay on our paychecks would probably be A LOT more too.

Anyone who reads the thing will see that the government spending money on roads IS constitutional. The military? Constitutional. Patents? Constitutional. But nowhere do I see where the Congress is allowed to allocate money for mouse studies, Social Security, National Healthcare, Department of Education, and the list goes on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on,............

Tax rates in 1913 (1913 currency)
1% for $0 - $20k
2% for $20k - $50k
3% for $50k - $75k
4% for $75k - $100k
5% for $100k - $250k
6% for $250k - $500k
7% over $500k

Compared to Today

10% for $0 - $16.7k
15% for $16.7k - $67.9k
25% for $67.9k - $137k
28% for $137k - $209k
33% for $209k - $373k
35% for over 373k

Due to inflation, that $20k in 1913, is about $431k today. Which would cost you 35% tax, rather than 1%.

Think how much we could stimulate the economy if we (for most people in the area) got taxed at 1% versus up to 35%. I think we're well beyond Taxed Enough Already

If we replace all the experienced politicians with newbies, we are left with a government that does not know what caused some of the problems. For instance, if we vote Stupek out of office, there will be a new 'leader' from another state on those committees he is a part of. This happens because the founding fathers, who I put lots of trust in, knew there are some problems that just don't go away, they fester. If we replace the justice oversight senators with new ones (say from the mid texas area that kills more inmates than any other area of the country), they might just start passing laws that do not reflect our midwest views.

Doc, good comment. I'm not red or blue..i guess i'd be purple..I think that is the color you get when you mix the two. I am more about people using their own minds to think rather than follow along with the crowd. I presonally see the far left fringe of society to be far more dangerous than the far right ( because of the numbers). The far left is loaded with people who tend to sound the alarm about everything. It makes good ideas from the near left be met with skepticism. The fringes of the "red and blue" make it nearly impossible to get anything productive done in government. The near lefters will go along with the fringe ideas because the ideas are considered left (like global warming, american apologist sentiment, etc). The near righters will do the same thing (you know..abortion, religion, etc.). If people closer to the middle could come together and say "Enough of the BS already" and get rid of the politicians that are on the fringe, the government would be a productive unit. We'd also have to do away with the lifer politicians. These people do more work in the shadows than they do in the light. Accepting fanatics because they share a little bit of ones values is insane. People should be outraged by the way the media and the politicians (and their unions) have spun them. People dont realize that they are being led around with a carrot on a stick. There is a lot to be said about "drinking the kool-aid". People should be able to see to the left and to the right. In most cases they simply refuse. The politicians manipulate people with fears. Some founded..some not. Would be awesome if people would vote out every politician and replace them next time around eh?... G'day... X

Extremism is ripe on both sides of the aisle. If there wasn't this energetic and passionate differences in people, we would all be like... one.

I don't want that. I do not want to be encased with Cit X so I have to answer to his belief, and I bet he doesn't want to answer to mine.

What we enjoy in this country is the ability to stand on our government's steps (that were paid with by our ancestors' money) and speak our mind without fear that this same government will come and arrest or intimidate.

We fought long and hard for these freedoms, I for one do not take it lightly. I may not be able to control those that I vote for, and I may not be able to manage the finances of our country, but I for one, am proud that we can pay a little in taxes so we can have a lot for the needed programs that a state must provide (police/fire response, educational facilities, medical care centers (yes, even these should not be private services, hence the "all patients served" necessity in our law), and sanitation services).

I WOULD NEVER BE OK WITH A GOVERNMENT THAT OPERATES ON A PAY-AS-YOU-GO SYSTEM.

Liberal or conservative, it doesn't matter much, both spend our money with little oversight other than a voting booth.

Dr. Savage wrote one book and Dr. Rossiter wrote another I found. I have read neither of them nor do I plan to. I just find myself agreeing because of liberals like the ones interviewed in this little movie : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcrF346sS_I

Now, I know this particular video was made by penn and teller, but the people interviewed are nutty enough to make my point. Are you as liberal as the people who think like these? If you are not like these folks, you shouldnt have even looked at my post in the manner that you had. Being offended by me means you feel the material I post reflects you. Hmmm...I like mine grilled too. Comparing preference makes sense. I prefer not to be associated with people like rosie o'donnell and sean penn. Do you think people are wrong for not wanting to be involved with the politics supported by these types of people? This kind of political stance is catching on for some reason. I think people would be wise to distance themselves from that. Note my use of "new age liberal". Liberal as defined is not bad really, and i fit that mould somewhat. The new libs are different..kinda crazy and scary ..ever notice?... X

Citizen X,

This made my day it was so funny.
You said:
"Typically people who are insane think everyone else is crazy and they are the ones with their minds right."

So let me get this straight; you say liberals have mental illness and you and other conservatives are sane? Doesn't that qualify you for your own definition of insanity? I don't know, bud, I'm seeing some serious holes in this idea of yours.

If you provided some information/links from credible sources on liberalism as a mental illness I would love to read about it. But I find it amusing that you come on to a forum like this and pass it along as medical fact when indeed it is the very political opinion of a single psychiatrist (and maybe Michael Savage?) and some right-wingers ready and willing to do everything they can to discredit their opponents. If anything, it is mocking of people with real mental illness. Do you prefer your hamburgers grilled or fried? I like em grilled but I don't consider a preference for frying to be a mental illness.

I've read a load of your posts on here before and I'd be hard-pressed to say I don't like you. I've seen some good posts on a number of topics and a number of things I agree with you on. But when I've read your posts I disagree with I don't immediately think it's because you have a "mental illness." I think it's simply because we think about some things differently. Saying a person's political stance is a mental illness is a lazy attempt to discredit anything a person says. You can do better than that.

If there's one thing I've learned from these forums...Don't tangle with the X!

The guy has a comeback for everything. Always has to have the last word. So Citizen X...you're turn :)

Precisely my point..you were so upset about my comment you went into a liberal rage about it. Is that normal? Typically people who are insane think everyone else is crazy and they are the ones with their minds right. Sounds just like liberals. I might add that there is more than one place for information on the mental illness. Just look around a bit. There are a few places where this has been studied. I believe 100% that new age liberalism is a mental disorder. I'm not saying it is something that a person needs to be put in an institution for. I'd think it could be fixed with some sort of counseling or maybe some drugs. I dont know..hahaha. If you dont like me that is just too bad. I do get a laugh out of you libs that cant stand me though. Believe me, the feeling is mutual. I'd never have any sort of interaction with anyone who acts as crazy liberal as some of the people here. You know the ones... All these conspiracy theory people who believe rosie o'donnell. I actually know some people who think the WTC collapse was an inside job and bush ordered it done so he could go invade oil producing countries so his big oil friends could get rich and blah blah blah. That is sane thinking though, right?. Keep reading me haters..I do enjoy laughing at your responses.... X

Citizen X,

Your "study" about liberalism being a mental illness is, in reality, a single book written by a single doctor. The book is not used or considered relevant by the medical field because it is a political text that is simply one man's opinion. Get your facts straight...i'm ranting again...think about it...X chromosome

My compliments to those who took the time to do this peaceful protest. I disagree with those that think everyone there was a conservative Republican who watches Fox news! I voted for Obama but do not at all agree with bailing out companies who can't make it on their own and have ridiculously overpaid exectutives. These bailouts will affect our children and grandchildren. I would rather see small businesses get some help than some of these huge corporations.

Ben Dover Marquette had one open your eyes next time.

What is with the "eat the rich" attitude? The majority of the rich earned their money by working hard, thinking and providing services people want or need. Not all inherited whatever wealth they've got. The top 1% of wage earners pay about 40% of all income taxes, with the top 50% paying about 95% of all income taxes. What more do you want from them? Instead, why don't we cut spending, cut "entitlements", cut pork and not "stimulate" the economy by "bailing out" these failing companies? I am not going to single out President Obama, since 1970 the national debt has tripled. A supposed "conservative" George W. Bush outspent every President before him. I am fairly young, but I will not be around to see this debt paid off, if it ever is. My children and future grandchildren are going to suffer because of past Presidents and Congress' reckles spending and I don't believe my posterity should have to pay for generations past splurges. Nor did our Founding Fathers.

"That we are bound to defray (the war's) expenses within our own time, and unauthorized to burden our posterity with them, I suppose to have been proved in my former letter.... We shall all consider ourselves morally bound to pay them ourselves; and consequently within the life expectancy of the majority...." THOMAS JEFFERSON

"I, however, place economy among the first and most important of republican virtues, and public debt as the greatest of these dangers to be feared." THOMAS JEFFERSON

I can only sit here and laugh at the resposes I see from the liberal minded folks who have to put their 2 cents into this topic. Someone said "whine whine whine". You do realize that you and your liberal friends did nothing but whine when bush was the prez right? Some other misinformed clown wrote something about Reagan having a 70% tax rate. In fact Reagan lowered the tax from 70% t0 33% or something close to that. Are people so dilusional that they actually think a different president will make any difference? The whole system is corrupt and they dont even try to hide it. But if you are a liberal and a democrat says it is a certain way, you buy into the idea like your life depends on it. It is so simple to go and look things up online before you decide to post something that is so far from reality it is laughable. I am neither a democrat or a republican, but I do lean to the right of center. To me liberal and democrat go hand in hand. In my non-medical opinion liberalism is a mental illness. There have actually been studies done that concluded this if you want to google it. Anyone who can listen to the speaker of the house and think "wow, she really makes a lot of sense and sounds completely sane" needs to have something checked out. These people are so far out of touch with reality that it should scare anyone who hears them speak. I'll cut this at this length.. I am ranting again.... X

What did bush do with our social security money? That was tax payer money that he didnt have any right to-What are you all living on?

i like green tea the best

No one deserves to be taxed 70 percent. Which I have a tough time believing was ever true.
There should be a set percentage amount for everyone.
Why punish those who work harder or are smarter at making money than the rest of us?

The Republican Party's long time savior, Ronald Reagan, had taxes on the rich of around 70% instead of the 33% or so it is now...I guess that means Regan was more than twice as much of a socialist as President Obama.

Don't get me wrong, the bailout is ridiculous, but maybe we wouldn't have gotten to this point of corporate greed if those tax rates hadn't come down in the first place on the top 2% of Americans, who own 95% of the world's wealth--really, they should have to give much of that back. Rich people should realize that the only reason we aren't going out and beheading them like the French Revolution is because this country isn't in such dire straights, but their ignorance and greed could very well put us there.

Did they go THERE for THEIR own reasons? Or were they TOO tired TO drink? Or did they BRAKE for a BREAK? Use it RIGHT when you WRITE...

U peeple who are doing theese Tea Bag Parties are dum. You dont know Obama our man is giveng tax brakes to 95% of the US americins out here? Give him a chance, heal do good.

I wish I knew about the Tea Party in Houghton! I would have gone. Figures Marquette wouldn't have one. Too many liberals who vote DEM and then blame someone else (I.E. Past administration, blame Bush, blame Reagan, etc.) when things go bad.

I think too many people are missing the point here. It's not the fact that we are being taxed to death, but the fact that BO has spent more money in his first 100 days in office than all the Presidents combined. Yes even Bush.

All this horrid spending on things that won't stimulate the economy increasing our debt and submitting a budget that is so huge we'll never come close to paying it off. We're trying to send a message to BO, Queen Nancy & Prince Harry that their ideas stink, they won't work and will lead us into astronomical debt.

Do we work for the government or do they work for us?

First off, I was terribly offended by the speaker at the Marquette tea party's decision to wear an American flag tie. This is in direct opposition to section 8d. of the American Flag Code which reads: "The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery..." So much for being good patriotic republicans.

Second, much of the information given was blatantly false. One protester carried a sign which read: "Taxes kill polar bears". When I googled this claim, I found no supporting evidence. In addition the speaker informed me that if I sent extra money to the IRS they would be happy to keep it. This is another lie. Two years ago I accidently transposed the last two numbers on my tax payment check. Needless to say, the IRS gave me a full refund of 16 cents. Why must conservatives resort to lies to win people over?

Whine, Whine, Whine, that's all I hear out of these conservatives these days. Would you all like a little cheese to go with that whine. I went by that protest on the corner of Third Street on Wednesday. Seemed like there were about 20 people who knew there economics and about 130 dumb slack-jawed yokels who only came out because Fox News told them to. To the 20 people who could explain what they were protesting: thank you for exhibiting your constitutional right to free speech. Even though I do not agree with your opinions, it is nice to see people exercising their rights. To the yokels: your time probably would have been better spent auditing an economics course at NMU or reading a book.

Hellooooo...Bush wasn't the only pres who was spending that money. Clinton did his share. Oh, and let's not forget NAFTA. Thanks to THAT (and some other Clinton-era crap regarding big-business), companies felt free to leave the US (costing a huge loss of jobs) and take their business elsewhere. Now, we have a whole bunch of people without family-supporting jobs and the nation is in financial turmoil. Obama has increased our national deficit HOW MUCH in just a few short weeks?? Alot more than Bush did in his entire time in office, I'm sure.

An education is a terrible thing to waste. Get one.

You all will find when the terrorists are in your back yard-

I attended the tea party at washington and 3rd. There were 150 people or more in attendance and there were people there at noon also. Its my first protest and not the last. I am so proud of everyone that came and voiced their concern whats going on with our govt. We all need to make a stand and fight to keep our money in our own pockets and not give anymore to AIG or any other business thats failing.

MC..do you realize how you come across when you post? It is obvious you are a liberal and like the tax and spend type of government. "Cut the army", that is a classic. Why not cut the welfare programs to illegal aliens and to people who are qualified to work? How about we cut the spending on pet projects and pork? How about we cut some of the foriegn aid to terrorists like the PLO? Maybe we could not pay tax money to every silly little study from fruit flies to deer migration. These things happened before people had the desire to study them so why bother now? I could write a 300 page book on where to start saving. Oh..here is a good one... How about the government employee start getting paid more along the lines of the private sector employees? Why are government employees worth 35% more in salary with a full benifit package on top of that? Cutting government jobs could help too. There are hundreds of thousands of jobs that wouldnt even exist if someone in the government didnt make them up. How about the government stop putting such an emphasis on higher education, then having to hire these people because they told them to go to college for things like library science? The list could get pretty long, so i'll just stop here..you get the idea.. right? .... X

...there will be a spontaneous demonstration every Tuesday in the orchard....What a waste of tea. Did they dress as natives like they did at the original tea party in Boston? Taxes are lower now on average than they were during the Bush Administration. All the UP could muster was 250 rich people whose taxes are higher or 250 angry Republicans who watch Fox News. It's a sad day for the loyal opposition. Teabaggers?

It's funny how these corporate lackeys are claiming that our tax levels are "socialism" when the highest tax rate in 1984 (UNDER REAGAN!) was a full 10% higher than where Obama wants to raise it.

Does this mean Reagan was an extreme redistributionist ultra-socialist?

I feel the exact same way (and attended the Houghton Tea Party)!! The idea is NOT no taxes (that would be more of a failed system than we have now); it is about more responsible spending of LESS taxes by the government (hence the phrase, Taxed Enough Already).

Don't be led astray by someone trying to tell you the Tea Party was about bashing Obama, it certainly was NOT; granted I didn't vote for him, but support him 100% once he was legally elected. It was a bipartisan message to all forms of government that they need to start enacting laws and acting on behalf of THE PEOPLE and not on behalf of the government.

The main "wonderful suggestion on how to properly use taxes" was just that, less (NOT no) taxes. In fact, here's a list of most of the taxes we pay today:
Accounts Receivable Tax
Building Permit Tax
Capital Gains Tax
CDL license Tax
Cigarette Tax (which just increased)
Corporate Income Tax
Court Fines (indirect taxes)
Dog License Tax
Federal Income Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel permit tax
Gasoline Tax (42 cents per gallon)
Hunting License Tax
Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)
Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
Liquor Tax
Local Income Tax
Luxury Taxes
Marriage License Tax
Medicare Tax
Property Tax
Real Estate Tax
Septic Permit Tax
Service Charge Taxes
Social Security Tax
Road Usage Taxes (Truckers)
Sales Taxes
Recreational Vehicle Tax
Road Toll Booth Taxes
School Tax
State Income Tax
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Telephone federal excise tax
Telephone federal universal service fee tax
Telephone federal, state and
local surcharge taxes
Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax
Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax
Telephone state and local tax
Telephone usage charge tax
Toll Bridge Taxes
Toll Tunnel Taxes
Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)
Trailer Registration Tax
Utility Taxes
Vehicle License Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft Registration Tax
Well Permit Tax

...And Michigan and the nation as a whole is in DEBT?! THIS is why we are angry at the irresponsible actions of the government. We're mad as hell and want our country back.

Stimulus money going to help save a field mouse in California is a waste of tax dollars, $300 Million towards STD prevention is a waste of our tax dollars. If they want to Stimulate the economy they should spend it on things that will create jobs. Build Bridges, Fix roads, do work in the national parks. Construction is 1/3 of the US economy, its a great place to start. Don't waste our money and pork barrel spending trying to save a mouse.

A lot of people don't agree with bailing out the banks or the Big 3 auto makers. We live in a sink or swim economy, why make it any different for them?

This protest was just about people not agreeing with where their tax dollars where going and/or how they are taxing the people to get these dollars ex: cigarette tax, and the newly discussed gasoline tax which has the possibility to bring our gas up to $4-$6 a gallon if passed.

people ars starting to WAKE UP!!!!! thats good

So what were there wonderful suggestions on how to properly use taxes? Anyone with moderate education would know that it clearly takes a balance between taxes and government to assist in the well being of our nation and its citizens. And oh, isn't the Army government? maybe we should cut that, then will have less government, and no army, so everyones on there own.

Why didnt anyone squawk about Mr. Bush spending our social security money? wasnt that tax payer money? Did- they vote on that? The young people now wont have any-